Hi, my name is Bahia Shehab and I approve of being recorded.

• What do you think of the graffiti that was present before the revolution?

I think it was interesting attempts that were basically Aya Tarek in Alexandria and a few artists in Cairo. There was a scene that was emerging but it wasn’t highlighted until the revolution. I think that is when the big work started appearing and the graffiti became popular and people started practicing more.

 

• Do you think the topics they were covering were political?

Before the revolution?  - Yes

Sometimes, not always. Some of them were just artists experimenting in the city, a few were political, but they were never at the forefront in the news or discussed and talked about in mainstream media.

 

• How do you think Graffiti has evolved?

I think it was of course due to the revolution. You had a political situation and many artists felt the need to express and they found a canvas in the city. So, many artists who wouldn’t have considered being on the streets went down to the streets because of the sentiments that were alive during the revolution.

 

• Were you present in Tahrir Square during the revolution?

During the first 18 days I wasn’t in the revolution, I was simply documenting as a historian but then Mohamed Mahmoud happened and the events that followed. Because of certain ideas that were being formulated and disbelief that something was successful then suddenly realizing that it wasn’t. You think that the revolution has succeeded but 9 months after the 25th and you discover that nothing has changed at all. It is all the same, the same mechanisms in place. It is the same people still enforcing the same brutality. The same injustice is still being practiced. At some point you feel that I don’t want to be a spectator anymore, I don’t want to document this, I want to be part of it, and this is where the change happened for me; after the very brutal Mohamed Mahmoud events when people were being shot and piled up like garbage on the street. For me, that was a breaking point, something in my head said I can’t anymore. I am very aware of the day I felt I wanted to contribute.

 

• As a historian, what did you think of the graffiti done during the first 18 days?

It was still not as emotional. They were the beginning of things, but I think the interesting discourse and conversations that we had as graffiti artists started after the 18 days, started after the disappointments. Actually, the real conversations for me started after the elections, the first elections when the finalists was between Morsi and Shafik. These were the periods where I felt that we need to talk and this is where the street conversations started. We were replying to each other, know knowing one another, but we all went on the streets saying the same thing in different ways.

Abou Bakr Ammar had this gorgeous street painting of the martyrs. On that same night when it was declared that these were the two finalists, we were here at the university discussing how we are going to preserve this beautiful graffiti. On the same night, he went down and he painted over it “forget who died and focus on the elections”, he wrote it in huge, and he painted the paintings of the mothers of the martyrs on top of his gorgeous work. On that same night I went down to spray “No for a new Pharaoh”. On that same night, when I saw his work, I cried on the street because I felt that this is someone who really understands what I want to say and he said it much more beautifully than I could have ever said it by ruining his own work to relay and even stronger message. So, this is when the conversations started for us.

 

• So, you think that the trigger was not the 18 days of the revolution but what followed it was more of a trigger?

Yes, and what kept following. Graffiti was like cartooning, you comment on the events. So when a thing happens, you go down. The massacre of Port Said happened, we go down a comment, and the 51 children of Assiout happened, we go down to comment. The cartoons were commenting in the newspaper, we were commenting on the streets. In that sense, it was an ongoing conversation.

 

• Do you think it is still going on now?

No, it stopped since the 30th of June. In July last year, a 17 year-old graffiti artist was found drowned in the Nile. So the message was very clear; you are not welcome on the street. It’s (penalty) is four years prison and 15-20 thousand pounds fine.

 

• Wasn’t that the case before?

It was 3 years before.

 

• Tell me more about your campaign “No and a thousand times no.” How did the idea come to you?

A thousand time no was a project that started in 2010 for me. It was a major commission for a museum in Munich and it was 100 years of Islamic art and I had just finished my Master’s degree on Islamic art. As a designer, this was like a good platform for me to present a political statement. They just wanted something in Arabic.

 

• Why the word “no”?

Because in Arabic you say no and a thousand times no. So, I wanted to say a thousand times no for everything that was going wrong in the Arab world. From Palestine to Iraq to Lebanon to Syria, everything that was taking place in the Arab world I wanted to say no to.

 

• Was this before or after the Tunisian revolution?

No it was before. I did it in 2009 and it was exhibited in September 2010. The work went down in January 2011 from Munich.

 

• How did you adopt an idea to every no?

I started looking for the different no’s to the situations. As I told you we were reacting to situations, so every time something happens, I had a no. “No to snipers” for the video of the sniper who was shooting the eyes of the martyrs and it was a greeting for Ahmed Harara. There was another one “no to stripping the people” for the woman with the blue bra. There was a different no for every situation. All of the no’s were comments on certain events, they were not no’s coming from the void. I am saying no to a specific thing. And then the choice of the ligature also had to be relevant too. So, if it was something that was very extreme, I would choose a no from a tombstone or a mausoleum, something that has to do with death historically.

 

• How long did it take you to choose the no?

On the spot. I had been working for two years almost with the research so I knew them by heart. They were like my kids. I had cute connotations for them but I also knew the value of where they came from; if they are on textile or metal or wood. Most of the ones that have to do with death were engraved on tombstones, which is why they are also strong characters in shape. Some of them are fonts from the computer and some of them are historic, so each of them is completely different.

 

• I have noticed you have a child

Two.

 

• How did you feel that you might be sacrificing your life just drawing graffiti?

But mothers were losing their children every day. I am insignificant in this.

 

• Did they encourage you?

The last campaign I did on the streets which was the one about the children in Assiout I took my daughter with me because I wanted her to know that other mothers lost their children. Some mother lost four. Are we that insignificant? It is amazing. So really, we are that insignificant in the tragedy of humanity that we are living as Egyptians. Whether I die or live, it doesn’t matter. My children would be orphans just like a million child who has been orphaned because of a corrupt system. My daughter sprayed with me the children on the street, the eldest one. Of course they were scared but they understood that I had to do this. I didn’t feel that I had a choice anymore.

 

•  After the laws, how do you see the future of graffiti in Egypt?

Because we are really linked to the political atmosphere and in a way we feel the energy of the people, right now, I don’t feel there can be a conversation. There is no conversation now. Thus, our intervention is insignificant. When there is a chance for a conversation we will join it, but now most of us are working abroad. My next campaign is going to be in Germany.

 

• Can you tell us more about it?

It is “no,” and it is more geared towards the islamophobia in Europe. No to islamophobia, no to violence, no to borders.

 

• As a half Lebanese half Egyptian, didn’t you think about having a campaign in Lebanon?

Maybe in the future I can spray in Beirut.

 

• Do you think there is substance in Beirut?

In Beirut, there is a really rich graffiti scene. There is already a conversation. If I would go back to Beirut to comment, maybe if I were invited on the streets there I would. It is all by chance. I mean, Germany happened by chance. They told me there is this political issue now and we would like to come comment on it so that is why I am going.

 

• Do you see a difference in the quality of graffiti before, during and after the revolution?

Yes of course. Before, as I told you, it was subdued. During, it was extremely emotional, very intense, very creative, and very wild. It was amazing. It was amazing to be a part of, to follow, and to document, to study and I could tell who did what. I didn’t know them in person but you could tell. Their personality showed, their background and their culture, it all showed. There were the petty stupid ones all the time everywhere. It happens in every scene. So there are the ones who just want to go down and play but you had the really serious thinkers who were doing really serious political critique. Five or six of them I think are world class; world class artists, thinkers and commentators. After the revolution now there is no dialogue, there is nothing, we all stopped.

 

• During the 30th of June, was graffiti still active?

It was still. People were still working but after that it completely stopped.